How to arrive at a set volume of solution when mixing powders?

This is a question David sent me because he is having trouble posting it on the forum.

Need Help Mixing 52oz MMS & Citric Acid for 13 4oz Bottles

I just mixed up my first batch of 28% Sodium Chlorite for 13 4oz bottles and my goal was for 52oz exactly, though I came up short by about 11oz (volume wise). I followed the directions from the latest book exactly, measured both the 80% Sodium Chlorite powder/flakes and distilled water perfectly by weight and now I'm confused. How should I calculate everything in order to end up with the 52oz exactly that I wanted?

Here is what I did for the Sodium Chlorite:

13 x 4oz = 52oz
52oz = 1,474.175grams
1,474.175grams x 28% (0.28) = 412.769grams

Subracted (28%)412.769grams of water from the total 1,474.175grams to get 1,061.406grams of water to start with.

Then added (28%)412.769grams of Sodium Chlorite to the 1,061.406grams of distilled water.

Once I disolved all the powder/flakes, I poured this into a measuring cup and ended up with just over 28 fluid oz. I'm now 24oz short of my goal of 52 fluid ounces. I'm guessing the challenge is in the volume to weight ratio?

Also, I followed the directions for mixing the 50% Citric Acid solution and came up short here too. I wanted 52 fluid ounces to fill 13 bottles and ended up with only 41 fluid ounces of 50% Citric Acid.

Here is what I did for the 52 ounces of 50% Citric Acid:

I figured that a 52oz 50% Citric Acid solution would be 52oz divided by 2, which would be 26oz of Citric Acid Crystals and 26oz of Distilled Water. So...

In a large measuring bowl, I measured 26oz of Citric Acid Crystals tamped down.
Then I added 26oz of Distilled Water and stirred together.
I only ended up with 41 fluid ounces of 50% Citric Acid solution. I am now 11oz short of my goal of 52oz that I wanted to fill the 13 bottles.

If anyone can help me understand where I went wrong, help me finish my current unfinished "13 Bottles Kit Project" and guide me into getting it right the first time when next I make up more kits, I would GRATELY appreciate it.

Thanks,
David

David, I don't know how to figure how much powder and water to use to arrive at a set volume of solution. Maybe there is a formula for determining that but I don't know what it is.

Michael

David, I think some of the problem is twofold. One is that even though water and the CA look solid, when you add them together, and they dissolve, and crystals that actually have space between them (minute as it is) lose that space and you end up with a smaller volume than you thought you would have. Also, MMS is heavier than water - which also messes up the MMS calculations when doing it by weight.

Didn't Jim's book before the newest give directions for doing 13 bottles of MMS?
Yes, page 211 in the breakthrough book.
His ingredients are 632.8 grams of SC and 1627.2 grams of distilled water. That will at least give you your 13 bottles.

Maybe Steve or Paul can come back with how to figure the CA - I know that if I want a 4 oz bottle, I usually make 3 oz of each. I usually end up with a little bit more than I need, but that extra I just keep as part of my back up. It would appear that you're losing about 21% in volume when you mix the two together. The question is - what percentage of each can make up the difference. I'd for sure start with 25% more of each. - Sorry I'm not much more help than this.

Here is the 4 oz bottle mixing procedure.

To Prepare One Small Four Ounce Bottle of 28% MMS Solution:
Step 1: In a small bowl place 4 level tablespoons of sodium chlorite flakes/powder.
Step 2: Add 3 fluid ounces of distilled warm water (max temperature - 150 degrees Fahrenheit).
Step 3: Stir with a non-metallic spoon and cover for darkness. Let the solution sit for 3 hours or overnight. Expect some settlings to fall to the bottom.
Step 4: Pour slowly into a dark 4 or 6 ounce bottle for storage and future use. Leave settlings in the bowl - discard them.

mms1

413 + 1061 gave you 28
you want 52
next batch:
413 x 52/28 = 767
+
1061 x 52/28 = 1970


ca

26+26 gave you 41
you want 52
next batch:
26 x 52/41 = 33 + 33
Caution:
I'm concerned when I read ' tamped down' that you were using floz volume?
1 oz weighs the same tamped down or not.
50% solutions must be by weight. metric units eliminate confusion
Steve's chart can be found at the bottom of the page here: keavyscorner.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=16&chapter=10
Feel free to ask questions

Thanks for the responses to all who have posted here and please forgive me for my delay in responding. I learned that Internet Explorer was the reason why I couldn't post here and have since switched to the Google Chrome browser instead and this forum works way better with this browser.
With all these possible solutions, I'm REALLY confused now! Or maybe I’m closer to a viable solution?

We’ll see….

To Pam:

No, I haven't seen Jim's first book and only have his newest book. On page 152 of the latest book, he says, "You will need 1.54 ounces of sodium chlorite for each 4-ounce bottle of MMS you will make. Remember that the solution in a 4 ounce bottle will weigh 5.5 ounces, because MMS is heavier than water."

To Paul:

Thank you for the link to the MMS conversion tables over at Keavy’s Corner for the weight to volume results however based on my own actual results and the formula in Jim Humble’s latest book on page 152-153, the figures in these tables don’t look correct. I also applied the same formula to your suggested calculations and they didn’t make sense to me either.

Your suggestions:
mms1

413 + 1061 gave you 28
you want 52
next batch:
413 x 52/28 = 767
+
1061 x 52/28 = 1970

If by this you meant I should use 767grams of Sodium Chlorite with 1970grams of Distilled Water, this would be off because, 767 is 38.9% of 1970 not the needed 28%.

When I applied Jim’s formula to my personal challenge, I came up with the following results:

28% of 5.5oz of MMS = 1.54oz
With this formula, I interpret it to mean if I want to end up with 52oz of MMS by volume, I would need to add 1.54oz to each 4oz of 52 fluid ounces.
Meaning:
52 fluid ounces MMS / 4 =13
13 x 1.54oz = 20.02oz
52 + 20.02 = 72.02 ounces by weight
Meaning that 52 fluid ounces of MMS would weigh 72.02 ounces

So then to end up at a 52 fluid ounces of MMS, I would first convert all ounce measurements to grams for more precise measuring:

72.02ounces becomes 2,044.567grams
2,044.567 x 28% = 572.478grams

So to get 52 fluid ounces of MMS I would mix:
572.478grams of Sodium Chlorite with 1,472.089grams of Distilled Water

Is this correct? Can someone check my calculations and let me know if this is right?

Thank you,

David

Hi Wildscorp.

767 naclo2
+1970 h2o
=2737 total
767 / 2737 x 100 = 28%

Hi Paul,

Ahhh... Now this makes sense. I think it was late and I was tired so didn't see that clearly the first time.

So, if I wanted to complete the 52oz I was shooting for and make up the missing 24 fluid oz; Would I just cut the difference like this?

(GRAMS) 767 - 413 = 354 naclo2
(GRAMS) 1970 - 1061 = 909 h2o

David

Hi Steve,

According to the MMS measurements chart on Keavyscorner, it looks like the combined weight of the Distilled Water and the Sodium Chlorite is 21.37% more than the volume measurement. By this deduction, could I then simply take those figures and adjust them to match the final volume amount I want to end up with as I’ve done here?

5.09 ounces – 21.37% = 4.00 fl oz
1.43 ounces NacLo2 + 3.66 ounces Distilled Water = 5.09 ounces MMS (Weight) AND 4.00 fl oz (Volume)

5.09oz is 144.3grams
144.3 grams x .28 = 40.4
40.4 grams NacLo2 + 103.9 grams Distilled Water = 144.3 grams (Weight) AND 4.00 fl oz (Volume)

So… To reach my end goal of 52 fl oz of MMS to fill 13 4-ounce bottles, I would multiply the figures above by 13, correct?

If 4.00 fl oz of MMS is equal to 5.09oz by weight OR 144.3 grams then, 52 fl oz of MMS would weigh 66.17oz OR 1,875.9 grams.

To get 52 Fluid Ounces of MMS:
525.3 grams Sodium Chlorite
1350.6 grams Distilled Water

OR

18.52 ounces Sodium Chlorite
47.64 ounces Distilled Water

I think I'm getting this now because my figures are pretty close to yours. Does this all look correct to you?

Thanks,

David

Hello,

Where did everybody go? Paul? Steve?
Am I now correct in my understandings? It's important to me that I get this perfected. I can email you off-post if you'd prefer, though I think that others may like to know this information also.

I appreciate any guidance on this topic that I can get.

Can anyone help me figure this out?

I haven't been able to get to the forum for the last 3 days, so don't know how stable my connection is right now. Seems to be a new router we installed here. Can't get to anything hosted on 1984hosting which is what I have my two new websites going up on also.

David, I saw what fox told you in the mms yahoo group and I think he his correct and that tech bulletin from Oxychem should be good. However when I use a hygrometer that I purchased I am not coming out right on 1.23-1.24 that it should be for specific gravity. I have been coming out at 1.22, always the same and I make 3 gal. batches of MMS weighing the water and sodium chlorite, so I don't know what is going on.

I don't have a good mg scale yet for accurate weighing of smaller amounts.

Michael