TOPIC:

I keep having people ask for directions on how to correct high ppm CDS down to 3000 ppm recommended by Jim. There is a dilution calculator here endmemo.com/bio/dilution.php that can be used. You use the first set of four boxes entitled "Dilution Calculator of Mass Percentage Concentration". If anyone knows of a simpler method, please let me know. Here is what it looks like:

Dilution Calculator of Mass Percentage Concentration





There are 4 boxes.
1. top left; has 2 submenus.
2. top right; has 1 submenu.
3. bottom left; has 2 submenus.
4. bottom right; has 1 submenu.

PPM = mg/L
This means parts per million equals milligrams per liter.

In the top row ("Stock Solution"), you put your existing CDS that is not the correct ppm that you want.
In the bottom row ("Dilute Solution"), you will put what your target is.
The boxes on the left have "Concentration" written over them, so that is where you will always put your PPM number.
The boxes on the right have "Volume" written over them, so that is where you will always put your volume of liquid.
You fill in 3 of the boxes and the press "calculate" and it will calculate the number you need.

Case 1: you have 8 oz of 5000 ppm CDS and you want to know how much water to add to get 3000 ppm CDS. You know 3 things here: stock solution has 5000 ppm, stock solution has 8 oz volume, target solution will have 3000 ppm. You need to know the "volume" of the target solution (ie, "how much water to add"), the amount of water that needs to be added to get 3000 ppm target solution.

The 8 oz of 5000 ppm is your "Stock Solution" and these numbers go in the top row. You know that you have 8 oz and you know you have 5000 ppm, and these must go in the top row, so where do these 2 numbers go?

1. top left.
5000 ppm is your 'concentration' so that goes on the top left; you enter 5000 in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Stock Solution" is 5000 ppm or 5000 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."

2. top right.
Now, where do you enter the "8 oz"? It is your "Volume" of "Stock Solution" so it goes in the top right box; so enter "8" and make sure the drop down menu says "Ounce[Oz.US]".

3. bottom left.
The bottom row is for your target solution and you want 3000 ppm by adding an unknown amount of water. Put "3000" into the bottom left box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" (ie target solution) is 3000 ppm or 3000 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."

4. bottom right.
This gives you the total volume of 3000 ppm you will have AFTER adding enough water to the original 8 oz to equal this volume. That means, you must press "Calculate" and then subtract 8 oz from the total given to know how much plain water to add to the original 8 oz of 5000 ppm.
Before pressing "Calculate," first make sure the drop down menu says "Ounce[Oz, US]" if you want the answer in US ounces. You could set it on "ml" if you want the answer in ml, but remember you still must subract the original 8 oz to know how much water to add.
Set the drop down menu on "Ounce[Oz, US]" and press "calculate" and the answer is 13.33 ounces. Subtract 8 oz. and you have 5.33 oz of water must be added to the original 8 oz of 5000 ppm to get 13.33 oz of 3000 ppm CDS.
If you set the drop down menu on "ml" and press "calculate," the answer is 394.31 ml. Subtract 8 oz. (237 ml) and you have 157.31 ml of water must be added to the original 8 oz of 5000 ppm to get 394.31 ml of 3000 ppm CDS.

Any questions?

Michael Harrah
480-963-5457
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Yes, Michael - I think people will need some help figuring out what they actually have in ppms per liter, so that they can do this calculation.

Hi Pam,

We have multiple operations at work here. Correcting a known excessive PPM is one operation and figuring out what PPM you have to begin with is a different operation. There are multiple ways of doing either. Jim gave some good examples of ways to determine if you have 3000 ppm in his video. In addition, you can use the Dilution Calculator of Mass Percentage Concentration (endmemo.com/bio/dilution.php) (thanks for the link Tom) in a reverse way to help figure out your PPM concentration.

Jim Method 1: add 1 ml of your CDS to 9 ml of plain water.
Then you use your LaMotte 0-500 ppm chlorine dioxide test strips and see what you have. There are readings on the color chart for 250 ppm and 500 ppm. If you get a color match at 250 ppm then you have 2500 ppm CDS; a 500ppm color match would be 5000 ppm CDS. You can also verify this with the dilution calculator.
Using the dilution calculator. In this case, you have already diluted so you will enter your data in the bottom row for (Dilute Solution). I will go through what to enter on each box, starting in reverse order with box #4.
4. bottom right.
Your total diluted volume is 10 ml., so enter "10" and make sure the submenu is on "ml."
3. bottom left.
You know your 10 ml tests at 250 ppm, for example, so enter "250" in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" is 250 ppm or 250 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."
2. top right.
The top line is where you enter the data for your CDS. You know you put in 1 ml of your CDS, so enter "1" in the box and make sure the drop down menu says "ml."
1. top left.
This box is the unknown because you want to find out what PPM your CDS is at. So make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second and then press "Calculate." You get the answer "2500" and that is the PPM of your CDS.

Method 2: add 1 ml of your CDS to 2 oz of water (60 ml total liquid).
This is a test I like to do, because you should get a pretty clear color match if you have 3000 or 6000 ppm CDS. If you get a color match at 100 ppm, then your CDS is 6000 ppm. If you get a color match at 50 ppm, then your CDS is 3000 ppm. You can verify this with the dilution calculator.
Here is the example in the dilution calculator if the test strip shows 100 ppm.
4. bottom right.
Your total diluted volume is 60 ml. (2oz is 59 ml + plus 1 ml CDS = 60ml), so enter "60" and make sure the submenu is on "ml."
3. bottom left.
You know your 60 ml tests at 100 ppm, for example, so enter "100" in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" is 100 ppm or 100 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."
2. top right.
The top line is where you enter the data for your CDS. You know you put in 1 ml of your CDS, so enter "1" in the box and make sure the drop down menu says "ml."
1. top left.
This box is the unknown because you want to find out what PPM your CDS is at. So make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second and then press "Calculate." You get the answer "6000" and that is the PPM of your CDS.

Method 3: add another 2 oz of water to your test in Method 2, so now you have 4oz water added to 1ml of your CDS (119 ml total liquid).
If you previously had a color match at 100 ppm in method 2, you should now get a reading of 50 ppm. This would confirm a ppm of approximately 6000 ppm for your CDS.
Here is the example in the dilution calculator if the test strip shows 50 ppm.
4. bottom right.
Your total diluted volume is 119 ml. (4oz is 118 ml + plus 1 ml CDS = 119ml), so enter "119" and make sure the submenu is on "ml."
3. bottom left.
You know your 119 ml tests at 50 ppm, for example, so enter "50" in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" is 50 ppm or 50 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."
2. top right.
The top line is where you enter the data for your CDS. You know you put in 1 ml of your CDS, so enter "1" in the box and make sure the drop down menu says "ml."
1. top left.
This box is the unknown because you want to find out what PPM your CDS is at. So make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second and then press "Calculate." You get the answer "5950" and that is the PPM of your CDS.

Michael

Thanks, Michael. I think most of the people making it at home are still trying to figure out what they have in the first place - and once they get that, then can use the calculation model you've given us. The problem with the testing strips is that once they hit 500, it's black, and it's black at 600, 700, 800 (not that I think anyone would get to 700 or 800 <G>) - so if someone has a really strong dose, the Jim 1 method might still need some further testing and dilution to get an accurate reading - not Jim's "fault" but a problem with the limitation of the testing strips.

Pam

Michael wrote:

Hi Pam,

We have multiple operations at work here. Correcting a known excessive PPM is one operation and figuring out what PPM you have to begin with is a different operation. There are multiple ways of doing either. Jim gave some good examples of ways to determine if you have 3000 ppm in his video. In addition, you can use the Dilution Calculator of Mass Percentage Concentration (endmemo.com/bio/dilution.php) (thanks for the link Tom) in a reverse way to help figure out your PPM concentration.

Jim Method 1: add 1 ml of your CDS to 9 ml of plain water.
Then you use your LaMotte 0-500 ppm chlorine dioxide test strips and see what you have. There are readings on the color chart for 250 ppm and 500 ppm. If you get a color match at 250 ppm then you have 2500 ppm CDS; a 500ppm color match would be 5000 ppm CDS. You can also verify this with the dilution calculator.
Using the dilution calculator. In this case, you have already diluted so you will enter your data in the bottom row for (Dilute Solution). I will go through what to enter on each box, starting in reverse order with box #4.
4. bottom right.
Your total diluted volume is 10 ml., so enter "10" and make sure the submenu is on "ml."
3. bottom left.
You know your 10 ml tests at 250 ppm, for example, so enter "250" in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" is 250 ppm or 250 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."
2. top right.
The top line is where you enter the data for your CDS. You know you put in 1 ml of your CDS, so enter "1" in the box and make sure the drop down menu says "ml."
1. top left.
This box is the unknown because you want to find out what PPM your CDS is at. So make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second and then press "Calculate." You get the answer "2500" and that is the PPM of your CDS.

Method 2: add 1 ml of your CDS to 2 oz of water (60 ml total liquid).
This is a test I like to do, because you should get a pretty clear color match if you have 3000 or 6000 ppm CDS. If you get a color match at 100 ppm, then your CDS is 6000 ppm. If you get a color match at 50 ppm, then your CDS is 3000 ppm. You can verify this with the dilution calculator.
Here is the example in the dilution calculator if the test strip shows 100 ppm.
4. bottom right.
Your total diluted volume is 60 ml. (2oz is 59 ml + plus 1 ml CDS = 60ml), so enter "60" and make sure the submenu is on "ml."
3. bottom left.
You know your 60 ml tests at 100 ppm, for example, so enter "100" in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" is 100 ppm or 100 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."
2. top right.
The top line is where you enter the data for your CDS. You know you put in 1 ml of your CDS, so enter "1" in the box and make sure the drop down menu says "ml."
1. top left.
This box is the unknown because you want to find out what PPM your CDS is at. So make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second and then press "Calculate." You get the answer "6000" and that is the PPM of your CDS.

Method 3: add another 2 oz of water to your test in Method 2, so now you have 4oz water added to 1ml of your CDS (119 ml total liquid).
If you previously had a color match at 100 ppm in method 2, you should now get a reading of 50 ppm. This would confirm a ppm of approximately 6000 ppm for your CDS.
Here is the example in the dilution calculator if the test strip shows 50 ppm.
4. bottom right.
Your total diluted volume is 119 ml. (4oz is 118 ml + plus 1 ml CDS = 119ml), so enter "119" and make sure the submenu is on "ml."
3. bottom left.
You know your 119 ml tests at 50 ppm, for example, so enter "50" in the box and make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second. This means your "Dilute Solution" is 50 ppm or 50 miligrams per liter in "Concentration."
2. top right.
The top line is where you enter the data for your CDS. You know you put in 1 ml of your CDS, so enter "1" in the box and make sure the drop down menu says "ml."
1. top left.
This box is the unknown because you want to find out what PPM your CDS is at. So make sure the drop down menus say "mg" in the first and "L" in the second and then press "Calculate." You get the answer "5950" and that is the PPM of your CDS.

Michael

I just made another 8 oz batch of CDS. I use the Jim Humble original method of 1 oz MMS + 1 oz 50% citric acid. Heated reactor (~ 180 deg) to collector in ice bath.

I have been getting ~ 6000 ppm. This last time measuring with Mike's method I'm getting 15000 and 11900 with the 2 oz and 4 oz diluting 1 ml.

Has anyone managed this level of concentration? Can someone check my calculation of diluting this down to 6000 ppm by adding 466.1 ml to the 8 oz (236 ml) - 1 ml (test sample taken)?

CONFUSION;
If we are going to use ppm, the parts must be in the same units. eg. miligrams per kilogram or microliters per liter.

When we write oz do we really mean fluid ounces - floz or are we weighing on a scale?
Let's be very specific - the whole world is watching

Actually, I understood him quite well, Paul, but it may be because I have watched the JH and Andreas videos, and have used some of these same techniques for determining the strength of the MMS. He's talking fluid oz and using a 1mL fluid measure in either a 2floz or 4floz water to get his ppm measure. The dosage for CDS is usually done in mLs. JHs original video was 1 oz of each mms/CA and 8oz of water. All fluid.

I know the 1mL in oz of water is confusing, but it works. And it was run by JH at the time it was devised. <G>. AND things have evolved since then. JH now has a newer way of measuring using 1mL to 40mL to account for the higher strengths MMS.

But then, we were dealing with only the 3000ppm/L and the 6000ppm/L. fourfingerz has gotten a much higher xxxxppm/L I'm guessing because he used the 50mL of MMS/CA to make the batch. The thing that concerns me is that I would have expected a measurement to be closer to half in the 4oz of water vs the 2oz of water. Makes me think that the colors weren't right on.

Fourfingerz, have you only the one 8 oz batch to work with? Do you have a fairly large (I use a veterinary syringe barrel) measure that will give you the ability to measure 40mL of water? If we have the answers to those questions, I think we can figure out the rest.

Pam,

Thanks for answering.

I was using the ENDMEMO dilution calculator to arrive at the dilution volume of H2O to get back to 6000 ppm. The volume of 466 ml just didn't seem right to me (too much), that's why I asked. I ended up doing it the Jim Humble method - add some water mix and re-test - not there yet - add some more and re-test. Anyway I got there with 6 oz of water (~177ml) so obviously I was not using the calculator correctly.

It was also a good safety lesson CDS off-gasses out of the bottle it was stored in (just the liquid adhering to the sides). I presume it was warming to room temperature rapidly because it was not much volume and so off-gassing . White fumes coming out of the bottle . Next time - a fan - what a good idea - Jim might have mentioned that

Good, I'm glad you figured it out. Sometimes you have to back into these things <G>. That is pretty much what we did originally when we figured out the 2oz and 4oz way of figuring the ppms per dose.

I thought to myself at one point after I'd posted, boy, I hope he capped that sucker right away. I nearly gassed myself making the extra strong batch - until I remembered to turn the stove venting fan on high and open a window for cross ventilation. And JH, in his last video - an object lesson to us all! Bless him.