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Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder

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Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 00:11 #9972

townsend
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Looks like I've got everything I need to make CDS now.

I don't have much MMS left, but I do have a lot of sodium chlorite. Is it really necessary to make a 28% MMS solution and then a 50% citric acid solution, only to mix them together to make a CDS soluton.

Couldn't I just mix sodium chlorite & citric acid powder into warm distilled water and save 2 steps. Wouldn't this simplify the process of making CDS?

I'm going to use Jim's Gatorade test to keep the strength of the CDS constant, but I have no idea what proportion of sodium chlorite to citric acid to use.

I'm guessing 1 part sodium chlorite powder to 4 parts citric acid powder. Any advice on this?

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Last edit: by townsend.

Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 00:19 #9973

paul
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citric acid
Molecular formula C6H8O7
Molar mass 192.124 g/mol (anhydrous)
210.14 g/mol (monohydrate)

sodium chlorite
Properties
Molecular formula NaClO2
Molar mass 90.44 g/mol

The textbook proportions would be 90.44 : 192/ 210 depending on the purity and form of the citric acid (powder/ crystal)
Other chemists please confirm.
No matter what proportions you use, you'll still get pure clo2 - just that the excess component will be wasted. ( :>( - $ )
Paul

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Last edit: by paul. Reason: more info

Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 00:32 #9974

pam
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athough I (at this point) only do CDS for my oral stuff, I still use MMS and Citric acid in all kinds of ways. I use it for skin spray (because I think it's more stable in a dark bottle in a medicine cabinet), I use it in a bath, If I did a bag protocol, I 'd use it for that. I love my CDS, but I won't be without the MMS - in fact, I just made up a pound of it two days ago. It keeps practically forever.

IMHO, I would make the MMS up first, and then make up the MMS/Citric acid combination solution to make CDS -

The chemists would have to speak to what you might expect combining citric acid, water and CS (because you do need the water for the CS to be at 28%) I don't know, but I would imagine it would create an amazing cloud of gas. Steve? <G>

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Last edit: by pam.

Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 01:03 #9975

paul
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If you use this method of generating clo2:

, the concentration in the solution bottles (except the last) will always be the same for room temperature collection, because the water can only dissolve a certain amount of gas, and it's the same every time, whether you use 1l bottles, 2quart bottles or 1 gal bottles as long as there is color showing in the last one.
Others have reported that 1ml = 3 drops.

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Last edit: by paul. Reason: more info

Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 01:30 #9978

paul Offline Platinum Member Posts: 618 Thank you received: 670	Hi Steve. 2naclo2 + 2hcl > 2nacl + 2clo2^ + h2^ It's possible that the h2 is saturating the bottles before the clo2 has a chance. Paul The following user(s) said Thank You: Michael Harrah
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Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 07:03 #9991

Michael Harrah
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Hi Paul,

The balanced equation I have for adding HCl to sodium chlorite is:
5 NaClO2 + 4 HCl = 4 ClO2 + 5 NaCl + 2 H2O

In this reaction, mms plus HCl equals chlorine dioxide plus salt plus water; there is no hydrogen (h2) produced.

But in your equation,

2NaCLO2 + 2HCl = 2NaCl + 2ClO2 + H2
sodium chlorite plus HCl equals salt plus chlorine dioxide plus hydrogen

hydrogen is produced which is a colorless gas but would be acidic I assume and could activate the mms in the scrubber chamber. Do you know if your equation is a likely result of adding HCl to MMS?

I should point out your equation also produces a theoretical 100% yield of available chlorine dioxide. Is someone in industry using your equation do you know?

My equation came from someone who is an expert in balanced equations as far as I know. I wonder if there is any way of determining which result is more likely.

Michael

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Last edit: by Michael Harrah.

Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 09 Jan 2012 23:13 #10006

townsend
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Sounds like Pauls 1 to 2 ratio, (90.44 : 192/ 210) was right on.

Also-- I appreciate Steve's advice about always never pouring water onto powder.
Good point. I'll first add the sodium chlorite to the water, then add the citric acid.

As to the ratio being somewhat flexible-- given constant temperature-- if I don't use enough citric acid, then not all CDS will be released. If I use too much citric acid, then that's just citric acid wasted. Considering that citric acid is relatively cheap, I will likely go over the 1 to 2 ratio a little to insure full use of the sodium chlorite.

Thanks everyone. I feel a lot more comfortable about attempting this.

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Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 10 Jan 2012 00:57 #10007

pam Offline Platinum Boarder Posts: 4593 Thank you received: 3702	Keep us posted on how it turns out. Inquiring minds want to know
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Re: Making CDS with sodium chlorite & citric acid powder 11 Jan 2012 20:40 #10076

townsend Topic Author Offline New Member Posts: 12 Thank you received: 7	pam wrote: Keep us posted on how it turns out. Inquiring minds want to know Will do-- but it could be a couple of weeks before I have the time and space to set up this little mini-lab.
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MMS (Master Mineral Solution) is Sodium Chlorite 28% (22.4% Sodium Chlorite, 5.6% Inert Salts and the remainder water) plus an acidic activator (usually 50% Citric Acid or 4% Hydrochloric Acid) when combined produces Chlorine Dioxide.

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