TOPIC:

Warm greeting to everybody,

I am new to this forum and I would just like to say I am a great fan of Jim Humble and everything the Genisis Church stands for. However, maybe I am simply ignorant or uninformed, but I would just like to open a discussion on a legal perspective regarding the issue of treating people using MMS.

We all know that MMS is used as a water treatment, every label says that it is not to be taken internally. It is not a natural herb and it is rather difficult to sell the idea to the public (but thats another topic). Is it not true that anyone that illicits another person to ingest this mix is putting themselves at risk of prosecution? Would ministers be better protected to have the patient sign a contract just like one has to sign prior to an operation in a hospital? This probably wouldn't be viable when there is a line of one thousand Ethiopians waiting for their MMS dose, but in certain situations maybe?

Imagine this possible scenario. An ill person dies on the second day of being given MMS by a minister. The dead persons family are adamant that MMS is to blame and decide to sue the minister over the death and have the authorities charge him with manslaughter. To make matters worse the minister is a white foreigner in the Philippines.

In reality the person died as a result of his illness and because his illness was too advanced, the MMS could'nt save him. However, the minister is charged with manslaughter and now needs to go before a judge and prove himself innocent. I know there has been only 1 death worldwide (not MMS related) but theres always a first, which minister is going to be the sacrificial lamb one day? Unfortunately in the capitalist system nowadays you are guilty until proven innocent (not the other way around anymore). How is a minister going to prove the person didnt die from the MMS in a country where forensic science hardly even exists and people go to all sorts of lengths to obtain compensation money, even autopsies can be falsified. Here no foreigner even gets a fair trial. Has the Genesis Church ever experienced any legal cases ?

Also at what point can a minister be breaking the law by administering MMS? Does it vary depending on the laws of that country? By claiming MMS is a sacrament, could this claim in itself be seen from a legal perspective as a missrepresentation? I would imagine that to avoid any sort of prosecution a minister needs to be very careful what he says and how he represents MMS to the people he will treat. Is using the word' healing' rather than 'treating' a way to avoid prosecution?

Doctors pay a fortune in professional idemnity insurance but a minister of this church can simply fall under the sanctity of the church as protection? I am not a doctor, in fact I would like to save thousands of lives, but I dont fancy being a hero and spending the rest of my life in prison because of some legal loophole or corrupt judge. I suppose until a prosecution happens we wont know what the loophole was.

Thank in advance.

Hi Macrophor,

My take on this:

As a Reiki teacher and practitioner in Florida, USA, I became involved and eventually the President of the Florida Health Freedom Coalition back in the first decade of 2000s.
We were trying to pass a piece of legislation that would allow practitioners of low risk, harmless complementary therapies, (such as Reiki and other forms of energy work; homeopathy and herbology to name a few), the legal permission to practice our healing arts without fear of legal prosecution. We had a great bill that we tried to pass several times. Unfortunately, we failed. The state legislature was not about to give unlicensed people permission to practice 'medicine' without proper health care licensure.

In Florida, ANY attempt to treat others for any health condition where payment is received by the therapist, would be considered practicing medicine and would require state licensure as a health care professional under some modality. For instance, Reiki and other forms of energy work falls under the licensure of Massage Therapy, although it isn't anything like Massage and can actually be administered without even touching the client. The laws are different in each state and country, so one would have to check with an attorney in their area to get a valid answer to their questions.

It has been my experience while working with the Health Freedom Coalition, that anyone, in Florida at least, could be charged and prosecuted for administering MMS or other products in an attempt to treat a condition. The fact that a person is charging for their services seems to play an important role in a decision to prosecute. Although, if your proposed situation were to occur where someone died after being administered MMS, I would think that the law might try to prosecute them for manslaughter if they weren't licensed to practice medicine. I believe that even licensed health care practitioners could be sued in a civil court in such a case, even if they were protected by laws under their licensure agreements. Malpractice insurance costs have hit the ceiling everywhere for this very reason. Physicians kill patients daily with their toxic drugs and western medical procedures and they are never prosecuted under the law. They can be sued in a civil court though.

This is just my observation on your subject but I would stress the importance of your questions to everyone. People must be careful. Bishop Humble knows this all too well. It is very true that the government will do just about anything they want...a case in point is the way that the occupy movement folks have been treated in some areas in the grand old USA and around the world. Not very nice treatment of our own brothers and sisters. Also, in the USA, the FDA approves dangerous, toxic drugs for human consumption every day. How could it be a good thing to poison one's body in an effort to cure it? Ridiculous!

I saw many cases over the past few years where the law came down on practitioners of harmless healing practices, forcing people to stop offering their services. Many times, the state prosecutor eventually dropped charges IF the person discontinued their practice. IF they didn't, they were arrested and paid the consequences. It's a FELONY here to practice medicine without a license, period! It is very frustrating and VERY complicated.

I wholeheartedly support your suggestion that we discuss these issues in the forum, or at least I hope that we can get some clear information from the Church as to how they would attempt to protect a minister from prosecution. I understand that they are not charging for their treatments and that they also offer the MMS free of charge. I am assuming that this is the way the Church is attempting to protect it's members from prosecution. My question would be has Bishop Humble done all the legal foot work; if the Church has a team of good lawyers and exactly what people should do IF the situation arose that they were being charged for illegal practice or something as grievous as manslaughter?

Thanks for bringing this up. I know it's a controversial subject and I experienced a great deal of resistance among practitioners in Florida to even discuss these issues. Some people would prefer to hide their heads in the sand and trust that they are doing 'God's work' and will be protected. NOT. In my experience, it doesn't work that way.

Peace, Terry

I think this may be one of the reasons that ministers do not charge for either product or advice - any of the services. it truly is donation only. Terry, was there any consideration of non-payment-but-voluntary-donation (or not)?

Hi Pam, basically, the Health Dept. eventually answered a request for clarification after our attempts to pass our bill failed twice. They told us that all complementary therapies are considered the practice of medicine, which requires licensure as a health care professional.

The massage board was the agency that we lobbied most often, as Reiki and other forms of energy work were our main concern. The board frequently told us that energy work may be a 'spiritual practice' but it was also a business IF one is receiving compensation for their treatments, including love donations. In those cases, licensure was required. Of course, it is understood that a person could not be prosecuted for malpractice if they were freely massaging family and friends at no charge. The same would apply to any modality, I presume. Mother's giving herbs or Reiki to their family, for example.

As far as the state is concerned, they are trying to regulate the business practices in Florida, so, $$ is the issue that gets their attention, unless someone (usually a licensed person) is complaining to authorities about someone.

One board member stated in a meeting that he supposed that if a practitioner were offering treatments at no charge, that it could be considered legitimate without licensure. The health department agency that does the 'witch hunts', didn't seem to take that into consideration all of the time. I saw frequent harassment of practitioners. Of course, they were folks who were obviously offering services....advertising, setting up a business, etc. Those who practiced through word of mouth generally appeared safe.

So, yes, the issue is $$. I have seen practitioners, as well as myself, offering free services in Hospice and other venues here without any problems. I do still see a lot of injustice surrounding this issue and I can imagine that it would be even more severe in many places throughout the world. I have been thinking about joining the Church just for that modicum of protection but it would be nice if we had more detail as to how the Church plans on protecting it's members, as stated in the bylaws.

Thanks Pam.

The key question is really at what point is a minister breaking the law by promoting or administering MMS? In other words what actions constitute a legal problem for the minister in the way he carries out the entire process of dealing with a sick person. The ministers aim naturally is to promote healing and wellness which will ultimately involve giving the person some MMS and instructions on how to use it. So right there we have the first potential problem. If the person makes himself sick at home because he didn't understand the instructions correctly who is at fault? Is it the minister or the sick person who didn't pay attention? In every case the buck is going to stop with the minister.

Another potential issue is the problem of using certain words such as cure or treat. Therefore the word heal, is used instead, but I doubt that even the word 'heal' would stand up in any court because to heal does not involve the use of any medicine given by mouth or otherwise. At best healing could be used as meaning to aid in or support. However what the Church is using is MMS which is not classified as a medicine in any country. So is the Church going to justify this by saying well this is our holly water in court?

Another problem is that the training involved for certification is granted by the Church. The law will simply say that MMS is only approved for use as a water purifier. Ok, the Church can then say well we are purifying our holly water, BUT what about the instructions for use?

We may have the authority from the Church to do what we do but the law will not recognise this in many countries. There needs to be a signed declaration by the sick person that will undertake the treatment or healing to protect the minister and the Church from private lawsuits and the law. Not that this would solve the problem but it would simply lessen the confusion about who said what in such an event.

Mnisters can not give advice in any medical capacity or prescribe medicine. Simply telling a person about how MMS may cure his illness or even help his illness is doing both of those things no matter how it is conveyed to the person. There's no way around it. Everyone practicing as a minister should at least have the person sign a declaration stating that the information given was of the opinion of the Church and that the person was given the MMS and agreed to use it at their own risk, without any threat or promise and without responsibility. Now if that is done then it's going to be a very hard way to promote the treatment and people are going to become scared of the product. So once again you can't win. So where is the answer? How can people of this Earth be saved? Are we all really doomed and are our hands tied?

In Africa it seems to be less restrictive because the governments there welcome anything that may cure the population so that they have more money for weapons. I would like to hear from any minister who is healing people in Europe or America for example? I would love to be able to heal people and make a difference but I can only do this in a country where I may be prosecuted or even jailed if I have a bad incident. Maybe for the western countries having a ministry will not work due to heavy laws but teaching people how to make it and use it isnt a problem. If that is the case why not simply run seminars only and forget healing people as a church in those countries at least that will ensure the knowledge is getting out to those that need it. What works in Africa does not work in most western countries.

Please if there are any ministers in any western country let me know where and if you have run into any problems?



The church states that this is part of the sacrament (holly water) if you tell that to the person you are missrepresenting it because we all know it is MMS. How is it possible to hide behind a church umbrella for protection. The catholic church and the mormon church have been around a lot longer but this Church could have some battles on it's hands in some countries it can not win. . I have seen quite a few cases on this forum in only 2 days of study that some people are using doses way above the maximum safe level. MMS maybe wont kill you but certainly make someone extreemly ill on too much dossage. So here we have a problem.

These may be questions you would have to ask Bishop Humble. There are too many what if's and unknowns - plus each Country and State is different in laws and enforcement of said law.

My next question might be, what or why is your concern? Are you thinking about becoming a Minister of Health?

I'm surprised there hasn't been more discourse on this topic. Is there any new information?

I am not aware that the "protection" the G2C may afford a member of the church, has ever been tested in a court of law.

And, this protection idea may only apply in the USA.

your safest bet at promoting MMS is what Andreas Kalcker is doing:
"I am not telling you what to do or how to heal yourself, I am just telling you what I did to myself and results".
this is still protected by the 1st amendment in the USA (for how long, I don't know)
any person with an IQ higher then 50 will draw their own conclusions. our job is to wake up people who are willing to take the right step.
those who aren't willing to depart from the medical matrix, will die by it. not my problem.