TOPIC:

When making CDS one is told to do so in a well ventilated place!
Very good advice!

My first try created quite a smell in my kitchen, even with ventilation as good as I could get AND with the Cooker Hood on full.

I investigated various other bottles to use as receptacles, since the tops on the simple "Mineral Water" type were not very good and were the source of the problem.

I found some bottles with much more robust tops and am now using a 5.8mm drill to make the holes for the 6mm silicone tube I'm using. That all helps but...

I had the idea of using an extra piece of tube to exhaust any remaining gas directly OUTSIDE the kitchen altogether.

This really works and on first try resulted in NO CHLORINE ODOUR whatever!!

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On my second go with this settup I changed the number of bottles.
I had been using one for the NaClO2 + HCl Mix and three with the chilled water to make the CDS.
Because you get two bottles at reduced strength I was storing that and putting that back in bottles 1 & 2 next time.
It made for a better setup to have TWO fresh bottles with nothing but water to catch all possible Chlorine Dioxide gas. This increased pressure in the system and required an adjustment of the height of the tubes in the bottles AND led to some leakage...

I've got some bigger Silcone Tube on order and when that arrives I'm going to make the exhaust tube of that. 6mm internal and 11mm external dimensions. This SHOULD I hope reduce pressures in the system and reduce leakage......
I'm even planning to have a "Sterilization Bin" outside and feed that tube into it with a semi-sealed lid and put in there anything which needs a radical ZAP! (Trainers with a lingering Verucca re-infector are my first target!) I expect that things so sterilized might not last much longer, but I ain't rich, and any possible re-use I can get before having to buy new would be much appreciated! It also beats buying Ozone gear to do what I can already do without it...

I will report on all that.

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Meanwhile a side benefit of my system is efficiency and COST!
Because bottles 1 & 2 of the four are already at "Medium Strength" I have been able to reduce the amount of NaClO2 + HCl in the "Reactor" bottle from the advised 50ml + 50ml, down to 25ml + 25ml! Not bad heh? AND I'm getting TWO 0.5 Liter bottles of full strength CDS from that each time! Even better heh! (Bottles 3 & 4 get stored in the Fridge and used as bottles 1 & 2 next time.)

Why should any bxggxr profiteer from my cancer! That's what I say!

Greg

I strongly recommend that you always test out a new system AND any system which you've made changes on since last time with plain tap water, before doing the real run. You can then do any tinkering with the height of tubes and see any problems in advance of a real problem happening and you can't stop the reaction!

Also I strongly recommend that you look at the specifications of your Fish Tank Pump before buying it! They're not all equal!
Some have much higher volume pumped than others.
Some have much greater pressure capability than others.
Some that say they can pump a lot of air, don't have very high pressure, so in practice with a system with a good few meters of tube, you won't see that much air flow in practice!!!

I also recommend an Infra-Red Cooking Thermometer. Then when the water in the bottles rises from the 2 - 3 degrees C that you started with up to 11 degrees C, then you stop the run right there, regardless of whether any Chlorine Dioxide remains in the reactor vesel.
Above 11C you probably won't get ANY more dissolved in your water. In fact you'll probably only REMOVE Chlorine Dioxide from your CDS bottles, if you continue to pump bubbles through them above 11C.

Greg, you are using the original method of making CDS and that is not recommended because it is unsafe due to possible explosions, happened to me, and it releases too much gas inside a house unless you vent the last bottle outside with tubing, which is what I used to do and had no CLO2 gas inside. And if you heat the reactor, you can get unwanted reactor products in the CDS.

The simple, safe, overnight method is the recommended method today, and has been for about 2 or 3 years.

Check out the CDS overnight method here . You will find many PDF files on the subject listed under "InfoSheets".

Also be aware of correct CDS dosing when compared to MMS1 dosing here and here .

I'm following Andreas Kalcker's method as on Youtube, with the modifications that I mentioned earlier. I have found him to be the most "scientific" source I have read so far! I also have his book. I do have qualifications in science.

I have downloaded all the CDS pdf's from the web page that you mentioned. I am particularly interested in CDS protocol P115...

I'm interested to read specific information about explosion risks. Andreas mentions the risk of ClO2 exploding but speciifically says that it will not happen in the "dissolving bottles" - only (possibly) in the "reactor vesel". Please I would like to read the evidence, since I strongly prefer his method to the method you suggest.

The explosion risk is dependent on Concentration, Temperature and Pressure. My knowledge of Science says that in fact Andreas Kalcker's method COULD actually be the more safe of the two because:-
1) His method keeps the concentration right down. The overnight method does not control this.
2) In his method the pressure is limited and ALWAYS has an escape path to keep the pressure down. The pressures that Aquarium Pumps are capable is relatively small!! The overnight method does not: it traps it all in a sealed vessel.
3) Yes - his method does use water from a kettle, but NOT boiling! (I've never gone above 40 degrees C !)
So two large plusses for his method and only one minus...

If you have actual scientific information about the influence of temperature on possible explosions of ClO2, I would be very interested to read it! I have not so far found such a source.

Given what you have said I may "see what happens" and how long it takes next time, if I don't use the warmed water but just have the reactor vessel at room temperature (never much above 20 C in my cave). I suspect that the concentration may not reach the same level before the cut off point of 11C I mentioned earlier.

With regard to reactor products being a problem. Since those same products will ALWAYS be present in MMS1, the use of CDS as opposed to MMS1 is good/better precisely because it removes (or at the very least, drastically reduces) those products!

With regard to CDS dosing, in order to be clear I will completley disregard all MMS1 protocols and will only follow a CDS protocol. That way there can be no confusion!
The MMS side of the literature has NOT impressed me - with its poor levels of clarity, unscientific language and intrinsic confusions. So they can keep their "drops". I'm not interested!

GregSpain
Andreas Kalcker's method is lots of fun - pumps, bottles, tubing, heating, cooling, etc. I started out using it . But over time if you keep at production - it turns into a fiddle. The over night methods - produce CDS with an absolute minimum of preparation and labour.

Here's the method I use - it's consistent and produces 1000 ml at a time

www.wps4sale.com/pdf/instruction/OVERNIGHT-CDS-GENERATING-KIT-INSTRUCTIONS.pdf

The CDS overnight method is simple, inexpensive and provides consistent results. And there is no pressure buildup that I have ever noticed. By the way, Andreas approves of the overnight method.

If you search this forum I think you will find that many people had "blow-ups" like I did using the original multiple bottles, pump, heated reactor and miles of tubing. Results varied a lot and there was lots of CLO2 gas escaping. Not the way for most people. If you haven't tried the overnight method, you might do so before you bad-mouth it so much.

And Greg, I think your posts are more research related and should probably be posted at the G2C research forum and not on this G2C protocols support forum.

This branch of the Forum is described as:-
"General Discussion
Whatever is interesting to you is probably of interest to others in the MMS community."
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Where is that G2C Research Forum? It's not listed in the Index.

Thanks for that link fourfingerz.
I've downloaded and read it. It is mostly the same as several other descriptions I've read.
However as a scientific person I see the explosion risks as being GREATER in this overnight method.

Until it is put into the Fridge to cool and dissolve the gas, virtually the whole amount of ClO2 produced is in gaseous form, with very little yet dissolved. Information I've read about industrial production of CDS indicate that they prefer a method which avoids any concentrations of gaseous ClO2!!

It is very likely that the pressure inside that sealed "reaction vessel" reaches at LEAST 2 or 3 Atmospheres. It is absolutely certain that it is MUCH MUCH greater than in Andreas Kalcker's method.

I can tell you for certain that an industrial chemist would probably advise Andreas Kalcker not to use any extra heat and would almost certainly look with disdain on the Mineral Water Bottles as not up to the job, but they would most certainly advise for the PROHIBITION of the "Overnight Method"!
I know the whole topic of "prohibitions" is a bone of contention for us, however while bogus "safety propaganda" SHOULD be ignored, genuine safety concerns should be heeded.

Added to that, the "Overnight Method" method is nowhere near as economic in producing from the raw ingredients.

Meanwhile, I'll continue using the Kalcker Method (with my personal improvements) untill I see satisfactory, real evidence to the contrary.

Greg

Hi ClO2,
I have done some searching but in such a large forum I have yet to find the many reports you mention. Perhaps they've been deleted? Can you help?
I did find just one report of a person making the MONUMENTAL error of heating the reactor vessel on the stove, and then one time using the wrong setting for the stove. Even then he didn't report an explosion, but problems with the strength of the CDS produced.
Yes that was ASKING for problems!
Did people make even worse mistakes?

I think you're right that Andreas Kalcker's bottle method is not for everybody! Clearly more than a little understanding and care are required.
I did research in advance and KNEW that it was a potentially dnagerous process. That much care was required.
regards - Greg